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 Post subject: Evolution vs. Creationism: Listen to the Scientists
PostPosted: Jul 15, 2008 1:31 am 
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Evolution vs. Creationism: Listen to the Scientists

Presented by:

  • Francisco Ayala, Ph.D., Donald Bren Professor of Biological Sciences, Dept. of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, U.C. Irvine, 2001 National Medal of Science Laureate.
  • David Deamer, Ph.D., Professor in Dept. of Biomolecular Engineering, under NASAR grant to research the "Origins of Life," U.C. Santa Cruz.
  • Barbara Forrest, Ph.D., Professor of Philosophy, Dept. of History and Political Science, Southeastern Louisiana University, author of Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design.
  • James Hofmann, Ph.D., Professor of History and Philosophy of Science, California State University at Fullerton.
  • Kenneth Miller, Ph.D, Cell Biologist at Brown University. Author of 3 High School and College Biology Textbooks, plus Finding Darwin's God.
  • Kevin Padian, Ph.D., Professor of Integrative Biology, Evolutionary Biologist, Macro Evolution, Curator of Paleontology at the Museum of Paleontology, U.C. Berkley.
  • James L. Powell, Ph.D., Geleologist, Specialist in Geochronology, Former Director, and President, of the L.A. Museum of Natural History, USC. Exec. Dir. "National Physical Science Consortium."
  • Eugenie C. Scott, Ph.D., Executive Director for National Center for Science Education, Author of College Textbook Evolution vs Creationism: An Introduction.

Series Continues with 24 YouTubes to back up the claims made in this video.

Many of these scientists testified as expert witnesses at Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District in 2005. This case is discussed in the PBS's DVD NOVA: Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial. You can see my write-up on it in this thread.

Edited Jan. 1, 2009 to add the names of the scientists, text, and links.
Edited Jan. 5, 2009 to change format.

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Last edited by RSM on Nov 12, 2009 7:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 05, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Quote:
I am posting this for the intelligent design folks that want to come here and state that Darwinian natural selection is dead, call natural selection a myth, and assert de-facto claims about intelligent design.

FROM: To all detractors of natural selection and supporters of ID


The OP contains much information to refute Intelligent Design and creationism, and prove why it is illegal to teach it as science in public schools in the United States. The thread also contains a discussion and refutation of Dr. Behe's ideas.

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 Post subject: Some More Science
PostPosted: Jan 04, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Hubble in Deep Space
Hubble Deep Field

Tony Darnell, who created this video, dedicates it to the memory of Carl Sagon. With this video he attempts to help viewers comprehend the size of the universe.

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Last edited by RSM on Nov 12, 2009 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Ken Miller on Intelligent Design
PostPosted: Jan 25, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Ken Miller on Intelligent Design
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

This video, a lecture given on Jan. 6, 2006, is nearly two hours long. For all I know, the following series, recorded back to back on nine YouTubes, may be the same lecture given nine months later. I have not yet listened to the complete series of either but I know Ken is good to listen to. The advantage of the series is that you can break it up if you don't have two hours to spare in one stretch.

[INSERTED LATER, JAN. 25 2009: I watched this 2-hour video now. It's geared to the situation of the Ohio school at which it was delivered in Jan. 2006. See next post for more information.

ADDED JAN. 27, 2009: I have now watched Evolution: Fossils, Genes, and Mousetraps. It is a different lecture though he touches on some of the same topics. See post below.]

Evolution: Fossils, Genes, and Mousetraps

This is a lecture, given by Kenneth Miller on Sept. 27, 2006. In it he refers to the Dover trial at which he testified as one of the expert witnesses.



Disproving Intelligent Design With a Mouse Trap
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=rW_2lLG9EZM&feature=related

This argument/illustration was also used at the Dover trial in Pennsylvania.

Edited to make corrections.

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 Post subject: Ken Miller on Intelligent Design
PostPosted: Jan 25, 2009 11:53 pm 
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Ken Miller on Intelligent Design, Jan. 6, 2006, at a school in Ohio.

This school in Ohio at which Kenneth Miller delivered the two-hour lecture on Jan. 6, 2006 was facing a very similar situation as the school in Dover, PA had just survived a few months earlier. The Question and Answer (Q&A) period takes up about a third of the video. The main part of the lecture could be the same at both places but I'm sure the Q&A is not. All the students, staff, parents, private citizens, faculty, or anyone else, who spoke or responded in any way throughout the entire evening was in favour of evolution. Throughout the speech there was spontaneous clapping and cheering. At first, Miller was quite taken by surprise and it was obvious that he barely had time for all of this. However, by the end of the Q&A it was clear to me--and also to him--what was behind it.

INTRODUCTION

People were intensely worried about the situation. A critical meeting was coming up "next Tuesday." As I think about this, I am impressed with how differently these liberal people showed their intense concern from the way fundamentalist religionists show their worries about the perceived degeneration of culture. These people did not exaggerate their worries with long doleful speeches, but they clapped every time Miller touched on a deep concern of theirs. During the Q&A the specific issues of their situation, and the significance of their clapping, became much clearer. Teachers were worried about being forced to choose between teaching lies and giving up their jobs. Parents were worried about subjecting their children to lies instead of a solid education. The community was worried about social regression in general, which would have serious long term effects on all levels of society.

At this point in the story the focus is on prevention. A few issues of central concern regarding the up-coming meeting and the local situation were addressed by community members who had information. It was obvious that Miller had been asked to speak because they needed help and advice from him as a person who had just come through a similar situation, and also because he has professional expertise in the academic field under attack. Not all scientists are willing to speak to a general audience; he is.

When asked what it was like being cross-questioned as expert witness at the trial, he responded very candidly. He knew he was speaking to people who might find themselves in the same situation in the near future. When asked how to find a good judge, he did the same. At the end, he told them in the heart-to-heart way that all Christians understand that he prays things will go well for them.

The evening had been opened with prayer. During the speech Miller shared that he had been raised Roman Catholic and that he had raised his two daughters Catholic, too, but he had also made sure that they got a good education. In response to a question about science and religion, he talked about surveys done over the past century. In about 1918, and again in about 1999, surveys were done that showed about 40% of scientists were religious. As a Christian, he explained science as being a "way to learn about the natural world." He explained that for some people there is no room in there for God but for him there is. His use of the term "natural world" suggests to me that for him reality consists of two realms: the natural and the supernatural.

I would have liked for him to explain how he justified belief in the supernatural. However, since he was speaking to religious people, he was not asked that question. A few of the students, who looked like Arabs and had a heavy Arabic accent, may have been Muslim so I am not sure that all of the audience were Christian but I assume all were religious. I took a few notes that I will copy--and maybe comment--below.

BOOKS

Miller talked about a few books, his own and others':

Miller, Kenneth R. Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution. In this book he was looking at evolution and religion. It is available on Amazon.

Wells, Jonathan. Icons of Evolution: Science or Myth? Why Much of What We Teach About Evolution is Wrong. This is from the "other side," and struck me as a good book to read if one wanted to learn more about evangelical beliefs on evolution. It is available on Amazon.

He also talked about Discovery Institute's Source Books of Intelligent Design. I did not do an exhaustive search of their website but I could not find these books in the obvious places. I suspect they might have changed their curriculum or titles by now; they have a history of doing this when the authorities catch up to them. This lecture was given three years ago.

STEPS OF "MAKING SCIENCE"

During the lecture, Miller showed with a diagram the five steps required to "make science"--all the way from a "goofy" new idea to the classroom. The rest of this part is pretty much transliterated verbatim.

1. Novel Scientific Claim
2. backed up by solid Research
3. subjected to Peer Review
4. to win Scientific Consensus
5. and eventually, if the evidence is on the side of these ideas, no matter how goofy they sound at first, and no matter how much the scientific community opposes them, they will find their way into Classroom and Textbook

He says: Now Intelligent Design advocates like to say they’ve got a new scientific idea, too. And you know what? If they wanted to do this [rigorous steps of research and peer review, etc.], I’d be thrilled. I’d say see you at the cell biology meetings. See you at bio-chemistry. See you at the earth science meetings. We’ll have fun. We’ll argue about this and I’ll show you that you’re full of it but you know what? Maybe you’ll do the same to me. Maybe you’ll come up with the experiments, with the evidence, with the analysis that will show you’re right. And if you are right, in ten, fifteen, twenty years.…you will automatically be in classroom and textbook.

SOME TACTICS OF ID ADVOCATES

Next Miller talks about Intelligent Design advocates and explains how they want to do things.

Direct Injection into Classroom & Textbook

He says they would like a direct injection into classroom and textbook. In the diagram, Miller removes the three steps between Novel Scientific Claim and Classroom & Textbook.

Obviously, that is not the way to learn about the natural world. He also shows in detail how they redefine what science is to allow for religious views without saying so. I did not take notes of that. I recommend people watch the video.

Closed-Mindedness

One point Miller made about Intelligent Design advocates that helped me better understand them was that they "want to open science up to non-natural explanations." I guess that is what they mean when they accuse me of being "closed minded"--they think I have closed my mind to the possibility that their ideas work. The problem with that attitude is that they reach this conclusion without investigating what possibilities I personally have looked into.

When they use it against the scientific community in general, I think they overlook the historical fact that evolution theory grew out of a very strong biblical belief. To suggest that the scientific community has not considered non-natural explanations is ridiculous in the extreme. They need to read about Copernicus and Galileo for starters. And consider how the Christian Church treated them--AND WHY. Copernicus died a natural death at the age of 70, but others were executed or placed under life-long house arrest for building on his heliocentric theory. See Capernicanism in Wikipedia. All these scientists were Christians.

Redefining Terms

Another tactic ID advocates use, according to Miller, is to rewrite the definition of science in the official state legislation or wherever this stands in writing. I understand from the conversation during Q&A that the public school board does this--maybe at the state level, I'm not sure.

Q&A

During Q&A, Miller is invited to make a political speech and he declines. He says science is apolitical. I like that because I am liberal about a lot of things but when I read about politics, I find myself more comfortable with conservative values. His statement allows me to be liberal re religion and education but conservative re politics and/or economics.

Next step after ID is “critical analysis of evolution.”

Moderator says “Until the theological presuppositions that underlie the attacks on evolution are addressed—and they need to be addressed by churches, by clergy—that this anti-evolution movement simply is not going to go away, and there will keep on being new avatars of Intelligent Design/Creationism…whatever it’s called.”

Person who brings around the microphone says: It’s not critical and it’s not analysis. It’s an effort to convince students to uncritically swallow wholesale outright lies about ________ of science.

WATCH THE VIDEO!

I would urge anyone to schedule a time to watch the video regardless which side you're on. It can't hurt for you to know the truth of the situation.

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P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


Last edited by RSM on Nov 12, 2009 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Evolution: Fossils, Genes, and Mousetraps
PostPosted: Jan 27, 2009 8:29 am 
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Evolution: Fossils, Genes, and Mousetraps

This lecture was given by Kenneth R. Miller, Professor of Biology (Cell Biologist), of Brown University, on Sept. 27, 2006 at Howard Hughes Medical Institute Headquarters for a high school audience from Loudon County, VA. It is not the same lecture as I posted about above, though he touches on some of the same topics. The lecture is recorded in 9 YouTubes back to back. Here are the links:


I will post some highlights from the videos.

Video 1

Warning Sticker placed by ID advocates inside a biology text written by Miller:

Quote:
This book has material on evolution. Evolution is a theory not a fact regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.


Brown University, at which Miller teaches, is in Rhode Island in the American Northeast, which is quite liberal compared to the Bible Belt states such as Virginia, Georgia, and the Carolinas of the Deep South. A reporter of the South asked Miller what he thought of this warning sticker. Not wanting to see a report about an "outraged northern author," Miller explained to her that in his opinion the sticker doesn't go far enough. In Miller's words (my transliteration):

Quote:
Atomic theory explains observational and experimental facts about the nature of matter.

Evolutionary theory, in the same token, explains hundreds of thousands of observational and experimental facts relating to the nature of living things. That’s what a theory is. And I told her, “But a sentence that really bugs me is the last one. The last one says ‘This material’—that means evolution, of course—‘approach with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.’

She asked, “Are you against open-mindedness?” I said, “No, you don’t understand. You know what that third sentence tells students? It tells students we are certain of every single subject in this book except for one—and that’s evolution.”

Now I don’t object to that as an evolutionist. I object to that as a biologist. Because apparently, what that tells you, is if you study ecology, you don’t need an open mind. And if you study bio-chemistry you don’t have to study carefully. And if you study cell-biology you don’t have to apply critical analysis. And in fact, everything in science you do you approach that way…. I would rewrite the sticker this way:

This book has material on science. Science is built around theories which are strongly supported by factual evidence. Everything in science should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.


Other quotes:

  • Evolution is the central organizing theory of the biological sciences. A famous biologist once wrote: Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution.
  • Without evolution to tie things together, the characteristics of organisms are just a bunch of isolated facts. What evolution does is show how these facts fit together.

Video 2

Miller is speaking about Charles Darwin’s journey around the world on the Beagle and his observations that fossils of armadillos appeared only on the continent where there were living armadillos. He noticed the same about other unique species.

  • The fossil record shouted out that there was an ancestor-descendent relationship.
  • Darwin also figured out that brussels sprouts, broccoli and cauliflower have all been produced from the wild mustard plant by careful breeding.

Darwin's Diagram of Speciation

Miller shows a diagram, which he says is the only one in Darwin’s Origin of the Species. It looks like the branch of a spruce with a few twigs. There aren’t too many needles on it so that I am reminded of a dying tree. This is not the intention of the diagram. The intention is to show Darwin’s concept of speciation. Miller explains that, contrary to popular imagination, evolution does not transform species; it takes a species and transforms it into two or three separate species.

When I look carefully at the diagram I see that there are sets of needles along the spines of the branch and twigs. The number of needles in each set differs. Where these needles are located, i.e. all on the same side of the spine or on both sides and how many on either side, is also important. In other words, there are no cataclysmic or major changes; the changes are subtle and one must look carefully to be aware of them. Thus, in my opinion, people who think they can prove evolution wrong by pointing to an ancestor whom they know was human prove only that they have not read Darwin’s work with the intent to understand.

One example of the process of speciation is the finches Darwin saw on his famous trip around the world on the Beagle. Darwin saw what he thought were thirteen species of birds on a series of islands in the South Pacific Ocean. He bagged (shot and preserved) them and took them home to ask bird specialists what kinds they were. The bird specialists told him they were thirteen different kinds of finches. They had flown off the South American continent and colonized these islands. Over the course of a million or so years they split into very different looking birds because they had adapted to very different environments.

Video 3

Right now, an insect called a walking stick in California is splitting into two species—one species likes to hang out on one kind of plant and the other on another type “due to camouflage reasons.” I think the fact that it is for camouflage reasons proves that there is a basic difference in the insects’ bodies themselves. It is not a “personal preference” item. I think it is also important to note that it is different types of plants that these insects prefer, not just a different plant because two individuals can’t get along.

How long does it take to split into two species?

  • Fish: 60-70 years
  • Mice: less than 500 years
  • Flies and other micro-organisms: perhaps just a few generations
  • Chart of transitional fossils from sea mammals to land mammals, and back to the sea.
  • Charts showing evolution of animal life all the way up to humans. Humans and similar species lived side by side for about a million years until the other species went extinct. “We might have had something to do with that,” Miller says.
  • CHART: Human Fossil Record Is a Perfect Match For Darwin’s Sketch of Evolution

    • Miller found a sketch of the Human Fossil Record in the latest issue of a science journal Nature that exactly matched Darwin’s chart of speciation in Origin of Species (that I described above for Video 2 of this series). Miller does not think this duplication of sketches was intentional, but rather that it proves how accurate Darwin’s theory was 150 years ago. Today with all our very high technology we have not yet been able to disprove his basic theory.

Edited to add the links for the videos. I had them in another post, but that was confusing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jan 27, 2009 9:22 am 
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Evolution: Fossils, Genes, and Mousetraps continued.

Video 4

Miller is talking about the fusion of the chromosome, discovered in mid-2005, that proves a common ancestor for humans, chimpanzees, orangutans, and gorillas. He continues:

Quote:
Is there any way to interpret this factual data as being evidence for an Intelligent Designer, or the spontaneous creation of our species out of nothing? The answer to that in No! Unless you’re willing to think of a Designer who wanted to fool us by giving us a chromosome that only looked like it had descended by pasting these two guys together. And if you want to believe in a super-force that is so deceptive—well, go ahead and do it, but it certainly isn’t a scientific point of view.


Video 5

Poster on Video:

Quote:
[align=center]What is Intelligent Design (ID)?

Religious people believe in an intelligent design to
the universe that is the work of the Creator.

But this is NOT what is meant by ID.



ID is the claim that “design,” supernatural intervention,
is required to account for the origins of living things.


ID is actually a doctrine of special creation.
ID is nothing more than creationism, cleaned
up to appear scientific and nonreligious.
[/align]


I had to make a few adjustments with coloring, etc., because I could not copy format exactly. My aim was to retain mood and message. The same will apply to following posters from this series.

Video 6

The central argument of ID: “…any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.”

The motor of bacterial flagellum is used by Michael Behe to prove this argument. I think I described the argument in the thread about the Dover trial. Miller demonstrates that all but ten parts can be removed from the motor and it still works as a syringe to inject the poison that gives humans bubonic plague. Given the proportion of the human population that syringe has killed over the centuries—one case of which in its worst forms, in my guess, easily competes with any world war, that is NOT nonfunctional. See Wikipedia articles:


When further reduced, the parts that are left also have functions of their own. According to Miller, this is what would be expected of the evolutionary process.

Another false claim made by ID, and promoted in classroom textbooks, is that the “blood-clotting cascade” is irreducible. Miller says, “It would be a powerful argument against evolution IF IT WERE TRUE—but it ain’t.”

Miller presents the mouse-trap argument in more detail than I had yet heard it.

Evidence from Expert Witness that ID is Religious (from ID advocates themselves):

  • Professor Behe has written that by ID he means “not designed by the laws of nature” and that it is “implausible that the designer is a natural entity.”
  • Professor Minnich testified that for ID to be considered science, the ground rules for science have to be broadened so that supernatural forces can be considered.
  • Professor Steven William Fuller testified that it is ID’s project to change the ground rules of science to include the supernatural.

In Miller’s opinion, considering supernatural forces as part of science “profanes religion, and corrupts science.”

Question to Dr. Behe: If you change the ground rules of science so that supernatural force is needed before intelligent design can be considered science, wouldn’t it mean for other forces can be counted as scientific as well?

Video 7

Direct quote continued:

And in particular it was pointed out to him that astrology would fall as a science by definition. And to everyone’s absolute astonishment, when he was asked this question, he agreed with the assertion that under his definition astrology would count as a science and could be taught in scientific classrooms.

Miller does not think that teaching astrology in science classrooms is the key for the United States to retain its role as the “leading scientific nation in the world.”

Coloured poster to illustrate the Steps of Making Science I posted above for the other video; he showed it again:

Quote:
[align=center]How Does Science Deal With New Ideas?[/align]
[align=center]Novel Scientific Claim
+
Research
+
Peer Review
+
Scientific Consensus
+
Classroom & Textbooks[/align]



Miller says ID/Creationism has been rejected by the scientific community, not because it has religious implications—he thinks lots of things may have religious implications and are still accepted into science—but “because the evidence shows it’s wrong.” I have been mocked by Christians for demanding evidence to back up their claims. I don’t know what they expect people to base their conclusions of reality on if not evidence.

Q&A

Q How long with this debate on evolution last?

A Miller says it won’t be resolved in his lifetime, and that there’s a strong movement in Great Britain and also in Turkey; Turkey surpasses the US in rejecting evolution. He thinks in the US, things are pretty close to the tipping point at which things will go one way or another. That was in Sept. 2006.


Video 8

RNA was discovered after, but came before DNA. RNA can self-replicate. According to Miller, self-replicating RNA meets the requirements of natural selection.

That is all I will post. It is worth anyone's time to watch the videos. As stated earlier, the links for each video are in the post higher up in this thread. Match up the number of the video with the link.

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