It is currently Dec 24, 2009 6:37 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]



Welcome
Welcome to the Atheist Apologist!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and upload content. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Proof that Intelligent Design is Wrong
PostPosted: Aug 31, 2008 11:59 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: May 09, 2007 1:53 pm
Posts: 928
Location: Ontario
Originally posted by Alex in this thread where a person asked for proof that Intelligent Design is wrong.


The original person complained that those videos are on Young Earth Creationism. The following two videos on Intelligent Design were then posted:


_________________
~RSM
P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 31, 2008 12:52 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: May 09, 2007 1:53 pm
Posts: 928
Location: Ontario
Alex, thank you very much for linking those youtubes. My science education is almost nonexistent and learning it is almost beyond my ability at this stage in life. But visuals like these youtubes are really good.

ID goes back at least to 1829. I doubt it was called that back then but I found the exact ideas that people are preaching/teaching these days in an essay "The Bible and the Natural World," by Archibald Alexander of Princeton Theological Seminary, published in the January 1829 issue of the Princeton Review. I read it in The Princeton Theology 1812-1921: Scripture, Science, and Theological Method from Archibald Alexander to Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield, edited by Mark A. Noll, 1983.

I will copy a few quotes to show that the theory has not changed a bit in nearly two centuries. The page numbers will refer to Noll's book.

Quote:
These sages...have been led to inquire, whence all these things? Have they always existed? or have they been produced?...[I]t may seem that it would have been an easy thing for any rational mind to ascend, at once, from the creature to the invisible Creator....A considerable number of those called philosophers entertained the opinion that the universe always existed as we now behold it. (p. 93).


Quote:
Others of those called philosophers...but, not being able to rise to the conception of a Creator--or...not liking to retain the idea of God in their minds...invented the hypothesis of the eternal existence of the elements...which they supposed to consist of atoms...These atoms, possessing various affinities, came together in every conceivable form of organized bodies, until, by degrees, and in a long process of time, the universe assumed its present aspect, and vegetables and animals of every species were produced by the fortuitous concourse of atoms.

Such a hypothesis might seem too absurd [to be believed by the] rational mind....[A]ll systems of atheism may be said to stand on a perfect level; for no folly can be conceived greater than that which says, "there is no God" (p. 94)


Quote:
A just and impartial consideration of the universe, cannot fail to lead the sincere seeker of truth to the opinion, that there must exist a great first cause, powerful and intelligent, who has made the world for some particular end (p. 95).


Quote:
If a watch or steam-engine could not be formed by the accidental aggregation of particles, brought together by the winds or waves, how can we suppose that such a structure as a completely organized animal body could be formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms? (p. 95)


This idea was introduced by William Paley in Natural Theology in 1802, according to Noll's footnote.

Quote:
Without light the eye would be useless, but when we examine the mechanism of this organ, and observe that it is constructed upon the most perfect principles of optics, can we for a moment hesitate to believe that the eye was formed by a designing agent to receive, refract, and concentrate the rays of light for the purposes of vision? (p. 96)


Quote:
The Bible furnishes the full and satisfactory commentary on the book of nature. With the Bible in our hands, the heavens shine with redoubled lustre. The universe, which to the atheist is full of darkness and confusion, to the Christian is resplendent with light and glory. The first sentence in the Bible contains more to satisfy the inquisitive mind than all the volumes of human speculation. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Here, in a few words, is comprehended the most sublime of all truths--the production of a universe out of nothing by the word of the Almighty. If God created the heavens and the earth, then he existed before they were brought forth--even from eternity; for he who gives beginning to all other things can have none himself (p. 96).


Several points I have tried to make are his belief in (not necessarily in this order):

    * questions about origins/meaning of life naturally lead to a Creator
    * God as the Intelligent Designer
    * stupid atheist vs rational Christian
    * only one possible explanation makes sense regarding the origins of the universe
    * God must of necessity be the First Cause (this is spelled out more explicitly in his essay; I would have to go beyond the limits of "fair use" copyright policy to copy it)

_________________
~RSM
P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug 31, 2008 1:06 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: May 09, 2007 1:53 pm
Posts: 928
Location: Ontario
I work on the premise that a live discipline is always learning. And a live discipline is based on reality. I think an argument that does not change in two centuries, and that can to this day not be shown to correspond with reality, is not a live discipline. The only "growth" or "advances" I see in the ID argument/discipline across two centuries of time is the method of argumentation.

William Lane Craig's people do not take a six 24 hour-day creation literally like Alexander did, for example. The evangelicals of today aspire to sophisticated debate methods used by secular scientists and debaters in mainstream academia. Since they don't have the facts to back up their arguments like the mainstream scholars do, they have to fudge a lot, and resort to ad homs and other emotional responses. In many cases they don't have the education, either, to match their opponents intellectually. However, the attempt is there to mirror and mimic mainstream.

And mainstream has made advances in scholarship in the past two centuries. This is what I mean when I say the only advances in the ID argument/discipline is the method of argumentation.

_________________
~RSM
P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jan 01, 2009 12:57 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: May 09, 2007 1:53 pm
Posts: 928
Location: Ontario
I've done quite a bit of research since this thread was posted. See the thread in these forums Tiktaalik: Missing Fossil Link Found in April 06. According to Barbara Forrest's research of the drafts of a high school biology textbook by Discovery Institute, the term "Intelligent Design" was created to replace the term "creationism" in the summer of 1987. This was done because of a Supreme Court ruling that creationism could not be taught as science.

As shown in the Tiktaalik thread, in 2005 a Pennsylvania judge ruled that Intelligent Design is creationism relabeled and cannot be taught as science in public school classrooms in his jurisdiction.

_________________
~RSM
P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Neil DeGrass Tyson on Intelligent Design
PostPosted: Aug 02, 2009 9:58 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: May 09, 2007 1:53 pm
Posts: 928
Location: Ontario
The Tyson movies were posted in response to Ben Stein's PROPAGANDA: No Science Allowed!.

Part 1: Neil Tyson - Gods retreat from cosmology.

Part 2: Neil deGrasse Tyson on "Intelligent Design" at Beyond Belief

_________________
~RSM
P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


Last edited by RSM on Nov 12, 2009 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Activate links.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Donate Now
Donate Now

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Hosted by FreeForums.org | Create a free forum

SD_Chilean v2.0.3 desgined by SinDramas.com