From this thread on Reasonable Faith.org.



That is the opening sentence of the first post of the thread. I felt as though the young evangelical was attempting to put a guilt trip on atheists for making God go so far out of his way for them--with atheists still not appreciating it. I decided to get back at Craig and inform him regarding what real Christians really are, based on how I had been raised. It had somewhat more impact that I expected. This will take more than one post.

Here is my first response to him:

Craig, in order for your question to make sense we need to first establish what a real Christian is. The fact of the matter is that not a single person on these forums is a real Christian. That means that every single person on these forums has rejected God's plea for repentance and salvation. Unless you repent of your worldliness, Jesus died in vain for all of you. Thus, for your question even to be raised on these forums makes no sense.

God said to Abraham, "Come out from among them." Jesus says to be "in the world but not of the world." The world wide web is the world. Anyone with an email address is "of the world." Nothing could be plainer.

WLC is deluded. So is Billy Graham and anyone else who uses technology and the world to promulgate God's Word. Humans were given a voice for a purpose. Jesus did not use so much as a microphone or a stenographer. Today, tens of thousands of Christians spread the gospel in the same way that Jesus did--via the human voice unaided by microphone or other technology. The Bible very clearly indicates that only 144,000 souls will go to heaven. There are easily that many souls across history who did not use technology to spread the Good News.

So all of you evangelicals with your fancy technology will obviously end up in hell. "Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there be that walk upon it." "Not everyone that calleth Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but everyone that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The millions of very worldly evangelicals calling "Lord, Lord" unquestionably constitute a very large number, and they are walking a very broad road. They've got all the modern conveniences and constitute the social elite of the land.

"The meek shall inherit the earth." To the Pharisees (evangelicals), Jesus said, "Publicans and sinners shall enter the kingdom of heaven before you." If you disagree that Pharisee equals evangelical, just look at Jesus' accusation "You encompass land and see to make one proselyte." If that's not what evangelicals do then correct me.

The so-called "Great Commision" was fulfilled ages ago. You don't want to obey commands about head-coverings for women and short haircuts for men as per 1 Cor. 11; you explain it away as specific to Paul's time. There's a major part of a chapter on that topic. There are two verses on the Great Commision, plus stories to show how it was fulfilled.

So you grab onto those two verses and overlook the stories that prove how it was fulfilled, and you conveniently overlook the commands about hairstyles and head coverings. This allows you to arrogantly push your religion in the name of your god and be full participants of the world--all at the same time. You delude only yourselves. Why did God create you? Only God knows....if he exists.

I do hope you take these warnings seriously. If you don't, you are rejecting God's own words. I've heard these sermons so many times I know them off by heart.

Of course I'm right! But there is no JW teaching in there. What you are getting there is Old Order Mennonite preaching. And yes, of course there will be people in heaven but it won't be the evangelicals and I am not asking evangelicals to live up to what they believe because they believe the wrong things! The thing about 144,000 souls in heaven comes straight from the Bible itself--Revelation, to be accurate. I don't need to consult any preacher for that detail.

Where do I stand in relation to the standard I have espoused? I'm going to hell according to the Old Order Mennonites. According to the modern or new order Mennonites, the horse and buggy people (old order Mennonites) are building too much on works but that's not true. They believe in grace and faith in the shed blood of Christ for their salvation, but they believe that what happens in the heart shows on the outside.

A true Christian is meek, humble, and content with a simple life. A true Christian is "in the world but not of the world." As such, a true Christian does not need the modern worldly conveniences such as the automobile, TV, radio, and the internet. Nor will a meek and humble Christian want or need store-bought clothing such as t-shirts and blue jeans. Women who are true Christians will not want to cut their hair, or wear pant suits; they will be content with plain skirts, long hair, head-covering. Also, true Christians will not lust for worldly education. They will be content not to know more than is necessary to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow. Eight years of formal education is all that is needed for this; anything above and beyond this is "of the world." There is abundant scripture for this.

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You can rest assured that I know all the reasons these people are wrong. But it really gets my goat that you self-righteous evangelicals think you are better than atheists when you are just as condemned as atheists are. You ARE "the world" against which Old Order Mennonites warn. You ARE "the world" in the poem:*

The church and the world walked far apart
On the changing shores of time.
The world was singing a giddy song
The Church a hymn sublime.
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The hymns from the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries that you sing in your churches are so worldly and giddy compared to the sublime Gregorian chant music used in our church. (Example. Slow it down to about a quarter of the time and you will have something similar to our church music.)

There is no comparison. It took me years to get used to your modern music. And I still can't quite get it into my head that I'm in church when I attend an evangelical church. I only went there because I needed a community when my people crowded me out. People are dressed so strange and worldly and they speak English and everything is all wrong.

Real church is a plain white plaster on the inside and plain pine benches, men on one side of the building and women on the other side. Sermons, hymns, and scripture in German. So is all conversation and everyday talk. English is used ONLY for writing and when talking to outsiders who don't understand the normal everyday language of Pennsylvania German. This culture is the bedrock of society and anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't know much.

I realize that is a very ethnocentric view of the world but I think it's time American evangelicals realize that there are other ethnocentric views of the world beside their own, and that these other ethnocentric views are just as real and just as valid. Besides, the Old Order Mennonites really do think that evangelicals are pretty stupid when it comes to stuff that is worth knowing or that really matters.

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“Come, give me your hand,” said the merry World,
“And walk with me this way!”
But the faithful Church hid her gentle hands
And solemnly answered “Nay!

I will not give you my hand at all,
And I will not walk with you;
Your way is the way that leads to death;
Your words are all untrue.”

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That's the worldly evangelicals that try to entice us to their worldly churches with cars and TVs, cheap grace, etc.

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“Nay, walk with me but a little space,”
Said the World with a kindly air;
“The road I walk is a pleasant road,
And the sun shines always there.

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That's the evangelicals enticing us with saying we build only on works and that it's all by faith and grace. They just promote cheap grace to make the road to heaven so easy. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM. THEIR WAY LEADS STRAIGHT TO HELL.

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Your path is thorny and rough and rude,
But mine is broad and plain;
My way is paved with flowers and dews,
And yours with tears and pain.

The sky to me is always blue,
No want, no toil I know;
The sky above you is always dark,
Your lot is a lot of woe.
There’s room enough for you and me
To travel side by side.”

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More of the same. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM. Besides, we have many joys they don't know about. They are so busy going to church and looking good that they don't have time for family and simple pleasures.

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Half shyly the Church approached the World
And gave him her hand of snow;
And the old World grasped it and walked along,
Saying, in accents low:

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This is a neighbouring church. My mother kept telling me about it. She remembered when they were plain. Today they cannot be identified from the rest of the world. Very sad.

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“Your dress is too simple to please my taste;
I will give you pearls to wear,
Rich velvets and silks for your graceful form,
And diamonds to deck your hair.”

The Church looked down at her plain white robes,
And then at the dazzling World,
And blushed as she saw his handsome lip
With a smile contemptuous curled.

“I will change my dress for a costlier one,”
Said the Church, with a smile of grace;
Then her pure white garments drifted away,
And the World gave, in their place,
Beautiful satins and shining silks,
Roses and gems and costly pearls;
While over her forehead her bright hair fell
Crisped in a thousand curls.

“Your house is too plain,” said the proud old World,
“I’ll build you one like mine;
With walls of marble and towers of gold,
And furniture ever so fine.”

So he built her a costly and beautiful house;
Most splendid it was to behold;
Her sons and her beautiful daughters dwelt there
Gleaming in purple and gold.

Rich fairs and shows in the halls were held,
And the World and his children were there.
Laughter and music and feasts were heard
In the place that was meant for prayer.

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This is the story of what happens when plain people start giving their hand to "the world." My aunt kept her plain dress but her children did not and her grandchildren go with any weird style of fringe groups in "the world." She and her husband left the plain church because they wanted Sunday School for their children. So did others. But this is the way things go. That is what I was taught.

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There-were cushioned seats for the rich and the gay,
To sit in their pomp and pride;
But the poor who were clad in shabby array,
Sat meekly down outside.

“You give too much to the poor,” said the World.
“Far more than you ought to do;
If they are in need of shelter and food,
Why need it trouble you?

Go, take your money and buy rich robes,
Buy horses and carriages fine;
Buy pearls and jewels and dainty food,
Buy the rarest and costliest wine.

My children, they dote on all these things,
And if you their love would win
You must do as they do, and walk in the ways
That they are walking in.”

So the poor were turned from her door in scorn,
And she heard not the orphan’s cry;
But she drew her beautiful robes aside,
As the widows went weeping by.

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This sounds like prosperity gospel which, so far as I know, Mennonites of all stripes shun like the plague. It violates human sensibilities of compassion and empathy.

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Then the sons of the World and the Sons of the Church
Walked closely hand and heart,
And only the Master, who knoweth all,
Could tell the two apart.

Then the Church sat down at her ease, and said,
“I am rich and my goods increase;
I have need of nothing, or aught to do,
But to laugh, and dance, and feast.”

The sly World heard, and he laughed in his sleeve,
And mockingly said, aside:
“The Church is fallen, the beautiful Church;
And her shame is her boast and her pride.”

The angel drew near to the mercy seat,
And whispered in sighs her name;
Then the loud anthems of rapture were hushed,
And heads were covered with shame.

And a voice was heard at last by the Church
From Him who sat on the throne:

“I know thy works, and how thou hast said,
‘I am rich, and hast not known
That thou art naked, poor and blind,
And wretched before my face;’
Therefore from my presence cast I thee out,
And blot thy name from its place.”

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That is exactly what I was taught would happen with the evangelicals--and to us if we dared give them so much as our hand. Just look at what happened to my cousins and their children.

So that's the teaching that always is in the back of my mind. According to it I am going to hell unless I repent. And so are you guys.

As I said in my earlier post, throughout history there are enough people outside the evangelicals to make up the 144,000 quota for heaven. The horse and buggy people of the 20th and 21rst centuries can represent recent generations. And before the 20 century, these modern conveniences did not exist.

*from page of the poem at http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/poems/church.htm:

I think my Post [above] answers your question. If you are (is, being) a Christian, the doing comes with being. Like James says, "Show me your faith without works and I will show my faith with works." Jesus says "Repent!" Obviously, there is more to being a real Christian than just saying the sinner's prayer. Jesus also commands to ask, knock, and seek (Matt. 7:7). He also says, "Follow me!" and "The deeds that I do, do ye also." In fact, the Sermon on the Mount is full of commandments from Jesus on how to live the holy life.

That's a weird thing to say. Just answer the obvious question that requires an answer in order to respond to your question. Apparently you are like most Christians--you don't want to look Christianity in the face.

Yes, but if you believe on him--if you truly believe, and if you accept his enormous sacrifice on the cross--you will be willing to sacrifice such a little thing as fancy clothing for Jesus. (I did not say designer clothing; I named specific types of clothing because some are more modest than others.) As for the Left Behind books by Tim LaHaye--those are a false doctrine. The whole rapture doctrine is not traditional historical Christian theology. It was just dreamed up one or two a centuries ago by some new-fangled churches for whom the "old time religion" was no longer good enough. Real Christians don't read those heretical books.

Jesus will return any minute--"in the twinkling of an eye," as described in Matt. 24. He will take the righteous with him. We don't know exactly how everything will happen. We do know that the righteous and unrighteous will be judged and divided. The righteous will go to everlasting bliss and the unrighteous to everlasting torment, as is clearly stated throughout scripture.

(Most of those things are said exactly like my mother--and the preachers--used to say it.)



That's because you have unrepentant worldly ears. (That much is obvious. You wouldn't be talking like this if you didn't.) As stated, I did not say "designer clothing."

That's the sort of thing my father and some of the preachers would say.

I don't have a view that the church can be "too laid-back," so you can't "share my belief" regarding that.



Because those things are "of the world" and real Christians, True Believers, will not be of the world. That's all I'm saying.

In case you missed it in my post above, I do not agree with these teachings. However, I do not accept that the so-called Christians on these forums condemn me to hell for my atheism when they themselves are so outright disobedient to scripture with their own worldliness. Grace does not cover such willful disobedience. If I go to hell, so do you. In other words, there is nothing--absolutely NOTHING--to prove that your version of Christianity is right and others are wrong.

I think Acts serves as history that the Great Commission happened. At least, that is what I supposed my deacon went by--that, and the letters of Paul, etc.

About the head-covering and foot-washing, etc. Tens of thousands of Christian women in the Americas today wear head coverings. These same Christian communities also practice foot-washing and the holy kiss. Most of these people believe that Great Commission is fulfilled. They also live according to the Messianic Word to "be in the world" but "not of the world." See John 17:11 and 18:36.

John 17:11 is part of Jesus' High Priestly Prayer (I don't know how to say it in English but that is what we called it in German). He was praying to God about his disciples and said: And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.

In John 18:36, Jesus is before Pilate and explains why his disciples don't fight. According to the text: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

How to make sense of those two phrases that I highlighted? In one chapter Jesus says the disciples are "in" the world and in the next he says his kingdom (of which the disciples are presumably a part) is not of the world. The difference is between "in" and "of." To be "in" the world is to be physically present. To be "of" the world is to be part of its government and military systems.

So as not to be mistaken as part of these, it is important for Christians not to dress like "the world," and not to participate in worldly things like organized sports, big business, entertainment, and the media. Likewise Christians must shun advanced education and contend themselves with the simple labour required to feed and clothes themselves and their families. Large expensive homes are likewise to be shunned because they are status symbols incommensurate with the meek and humble spirit Christ commands in his children. Having a distinct language also helps maintain the boundary between the church and world but is not totally mandatory.

We had a hymn in our church I always loved. The first line of every verse translates roughly:

Humility, thou wondrous virtue
Treasure of our brotherhood...

(I realize the meter is way off but I haven't got the time to work it all out; that captures the meaning.)

So anyway, that tells you how the humble Christian life translates into today's Western culture. You evangelicals don't begin to meet the standards. You ARE "The World" and it's you who are singing the world's "giddy song."

Will you heed Christ's call to "Repent! for the kingdom of God is at hand" or will you continue in your godless ways of the world?