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 Post subject: New Name
PostPosted: Apr 27, 2009 10:40 pm 
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Lots of people seemed to feel really uncomfortable with the very militant name under which these forums have existed, i.e. Foundation for Fighting Fundamentalist Religion, but I couldn't think of a better one. I don't know if the present one, Atheist Apologetics, is better, but it's different and it reflects my background and interest in theology.

Uh...theo--what???

"Why would an atheist study theology?" is a question I get asked a lot.

Standard Answer: Life got me in a bottle-neck where studying theology was one of the very few options that were open to me so I took it and here I am. Also, I still identified as a Christian at the time, though by no means orthodox.

Also to be very clear: The study of theology did not cause my "falling away" from the faith. It just made the landing a lot more comfortable. In other words, I now know that there really are no answers--if there were, I would have found them during my formal studies.

Love of My Life

On top of all that, I found that I simply loved the systematic study of theology. I've been unable to stop even though I got my degree a year ago. A fellow skeptic suggested that theology focuses on human nature. That would certainly explain why I love it so much; I absolutely love the study of human nature--it's what my central life energies have focused on since I was about fourteen years old. My interest in "what we believe" goes back much further. So it's really hard to sort through all this.

I simply love the study of what people believe and why, i.e. what makes people happy and why. If we believe that a relationship with Jesus makes humans happy, then we strive for such a relationship and try to nurture it in any way possible. This could mean a study of the Bible, weekly meetings with others to hear and sing about Jesus, etc.

Anyway, it has occurred to me that what I am doing is possibly atheist apologetics--just adapting the Christian model to atheist beliefs. I really don't know and I don't think it matters. I like the title. I googled it and the term is out there but it's not over-used.

Atheist Apologetics

One author who uses the term is the evangelical scholar Joseph E. Rhodes of Eastern Michigan University in his article "Post 9/11 Atheist Apologetics: Persuasive Diatribes and Snarky Polemics." His article can be accessed here. He writes about Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion, Christopher Hitchens's God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, and Sam Harris's The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason. So far as I know, none of them have training in theology. I guess if their works can be called "apologetics," so can mine.

Books have been written by people like Dan Barker and John W. Loftus who used to be Christian preachers and apologists. Strangely, it's not their books that are being referred to, though my guess is that they pose at least as great a threat to Christianity as do these other books. Dawkins is so far outside of the real thing that he does not come across to me as being any real threat to American fundamentalist religion. Possibly that is why they can afford to mock him; mocking real apologists like Barker and Loftus who dare say "There is no god"--and who know the Christian apologetics inside out every bit as good as do the Christian theologians themselves--that might be too dangerous.

Real Atheist Apologists Speak

Both Barker in Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists and Loftus in Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity say the words that "there is no god" or "god does not exist." Dawkins says explicitly that no one can make that statement. Dawkins's is the most popular position among atheists these days. However, I am convinced that there is no supernatural realm.

I checked it all out before I could deconvert. No way can I now re-convert just because some famous atheist claims there just might be a supernatural realm, and that we cannot rule it out altogether 100%. He's a numbers and technical details guy, so he would naturally think of the infinitesimal fraction of a percentage of a chance that there might be a god. (Don't ask me what is the difference between that and zero because we're talking about something infinitely smaller than a speck of dust.)

Richard Dawkins

This guy knows how bodies and universes are put together but he doesn't know all that much about how minds work--human or divine. I like him because he seems like a really decent guy and I love that he's sticking his neck out at a time when necks need to be stuck out. The title of his last book is just marvelous. At a time when people will kill themselves and others for their God as a fast track to heaven, the term "God Delusion"--IS IT REALLY ALL A DELUSION?--grabs attention like nothing could.

Dawkins speaks mainly to the Christian world because Christianity is what he knows best. The same goes for Harris, Hitchens, and Daniel Dennet (who somehow escapes Rhodes's criticism). See the Four Horsemen. I see it's now on YouTube as a series of 12. I think it's somewhere in the middle, near the beginning of the second hour, on my DVD. I wouldn't know if it's exactly the same on YouTube. Sam Harris suggests that for a Muslim voice one would have to listen to an exMuslim such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I've read most of her book Infidel and I agree.

Similarities Across Religions

However, there are striking similarities across fundamentalist religions that cannot be ignored. Last summer I listened to a lot of speakers at the Humanist Conference in Toronto, and two stood out because they spoke of their journeys out of fundamentalist religion. These two speakers were Dan Barker and Dr. Khalid Sohail. Sohail came out of Islam and titled his speech "From Fundamentalism to Humanism: Milestones of My Personal Philosophical Journey." I especially identify with people born in fundamentalist Muslim countries who move to Western countries. Like me, they not only left religion but a culture consciously based on that religion. Like me, they risk serious criticism not only for their change of beliefs but also for their change of culture that goes along with the beliefs. This is not to mention the struggle to learn the culture in the first place.

Conclusion

One thing all of us atheists in a predominantly religious world have in common is the need to think seriously about our positions and why we hold them. I realize there may be atheists who, for some reason, have not found it necessary to give much thought to their positions. Many of us, however, do know what we believe and can express it with varying degrees of comfort and clarity. This does not say that we will. Many are the folks who have been burned so badly by religion that they want nothing to do with religious folks or their talk about Jesus. They just want to focus on getting the most out of what life remains--after what religion has stolen from them. In my opinion, that is a form of apologetics in and of itself.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Apr 28, 2009 12:40 am 
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In case people read this OP when I first posted it. My computer was acting funny and I thought it might conk out on me so I posted what I had ready at the time. I added a lot since then, in case you wish to read it again.

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 Post subject: Re: New Name
PostPosted: Apr 30, 2009 4:55 pm 
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RSM wrote:
Anyway, it has occurred to me that what I am doing is possibly atheist apologetics--just adapting the Christian model to atheist beliefs. I really don't know and I don't think it matters. I like the title. I googled it and the term is out there but it's not over-used.


I have 2 questions, RSM.

1 Which 'atheist beliefs' do you mean?
2 Against whom will you be defending them?


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 Post subject: Re: New Name
PostPosted: Apr 30, 2009 11:49 pm 
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doesitmatter wrote:
RSM wrote:
Anyway, it has occurred to me that what I am doing is possibly atheist apologetics--just adapting the Christian model to atheist beliefs. I really don't know and I don't think it matters. I like the title. I googled it and the term is out there but it's not over-used.


I have 2 questions, RSM.

1 Which 'atheist beliefs' do you mean?
2 Against whom will you be defending them?


Which beliefs? My own, many of which you can read about on these forums.

Against whom will I defend them? I don't see myself having to "defend" my beliefs "against" anyone; I know what I believe and why, and that is all that matters. I understand "apologetics" means to explain what one believes and why. Isn't your concept of "defending one's beliefs against someone" more commonly known as polemics? At this point in my life I'm not interested in that.

Also, you will note that I don't indicate any changes; I say "it has occurred to me that what I am doing [in the present] is possibly atheist apologetics." Thus, your question regarding against whom I "will defend" my beliefs in the future, indicating a plan to change my strategy, is moot.

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P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


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 Post subject: Re: New Name
PostPosted: May 01, 2009 3:40 am 
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RSM wrote:
I understand "apologetics" means to explain what one believes and why. Isn't your concept of "defending one's beliefs against someone" more commonly known as polemics? At this point in my life I'm not interested in that..


The word "apologetics" comes from the Greek word apologia, meaning a speaking in defense.
A Christian apologist would speak in defense of Christianity.
A Muslim apologist would speak in defense of Islam.
An Atheist apologist would speak in defense of Atheism.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc are belief systems. I don't think that A-theism is a belief system, is it? Doesn't the word simply mean 'without theism'?


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 Post subject: Definition of Apologetics
PostPosted: May 01, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Okay, I looked up the word "apologetics" in Answers.com. Here's the definition given:

    n. (used with a sing. verb)

    1. The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
    2. Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.

Seems you're right. It's not exactly what I was told by whoever I asked some time ago but the dictionary probably knows.

I always thought when Christians write apologetics they are apologizing for their beliefs, but that did not make sense at all because they also professed to be willing to die for their beliefs. If we humans are sorry for something--apologetic--to the degree that we apologize, normally we are not also willing to die for whatever it is that we are apologizing. Thus, I do not understand how apologetics can possibly mean "to defend."

All the same, if that is what it means, a few of the ideas I have been defending on these forums are that:

    1. God does not exist, and
    2. The power of fundamentalist religion must be broken.


If you want to know more details read my posts here, on exChristian.net, and on Reasonable Faith.org. I go by various forms of the screen name rsmartin.

_________________
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P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


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 Post subject: Re: New Name
PostPosted: May 01, 2009 11:51 pm 
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doesitmatter wrote:
I don't think that A-theism is a belief system, is it? Doesn't the word simply mean 'without theism'?


This agrees with what I've been taught. However, some life philosophies such as Secular Humanism and Free Thought are often adopted by atheists. I personally have not studied either of those "systems" philosophically, and I am unable to find any single list of principles to which all Humanists adhere. However, I find myself feeling very much at home with both Secular Humanists and with Free Thinkers. Often, the same people identify as both.

The core value of Humanism seems to be that "You can do whatever you like so long as you don't hurt yourself or others." The concept of Free Thought seems to be not to subject one's thinking to authority, but to arrive at one's own conclusions via a critical evaluation of all the facts. Since both of these are the natural outcome of human development as social and intelligent beings, it stands to reason that no huge volumes of literature are required in order for people to organize around the concepts.

Sometimes, I think a new type of atheism is coming in with the internet much in the same way that a new type of Christianity came in with the printing press--both due to the fact that information is much more easily dispensed and shared with the new medium than was previously possible. 9/11, which occurred at the exact time that the internet and personal computers were taking off, had a very definite impact on this New Atheism. Whether an inside or outside job, the attack on the United States on September 11, 2001 proved to religious--and nonreligious--people around the world that no almighty power existed that was capable or willing to stop the attacks on God's Chosen People in their Promised Homeland.

Just the other day I came across yet another post on a forum somewhere by one more person for whom this failure on God's part to come through for his people had a life-altering impact. If memory serves me correctly, every single one of The Four Horsemen of the New Atheists (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennet, and Sam Harris) has said either in print or on video camera that his most recent book(s) was written as a response to 9/11.

Those attacks did not impact me in this specific way. I still identified as a Christian of sorts at the time, but I had never had a very strong confidence in God's willingness to listen to anyone's prayers. He had utterly failed me in this. All that I expected of God was for him to manifest his existence, prove that he created the universe, and explain to me exactly how the dead body of Jesus could save anyone's soul from hell. I still held some hope that he might come through on these items. The 9/11 attacks had no impact whatsoever on this hope. What 9/11 did to me was disillusion me on the goodness of humanity.

As time went on, it became clear to me that it was fundamentalist religionists who most strongly--as a group--supported this war from the American side. Despite the very strong anti-Americanism in this part of the world, getting the Muslim side of the story is extremely difficult from my position as a Canadian but a few hour's drive from the Canadian-American international border. However, I've seen one of Dawkins's movies in which he interviews a Muslim imam or whatever--a leader of Islam in some capacity; I think this was in a Muslim country. The guy blasts Dawkins for not dressing Western women decently and threateningly predicts that until Western men dress their women decently things will not be well for them. Dawkins protests that the women dress themselves. The imam doesn't listen to this and plows right ahead with his condemnation of the West. The same movie also shows the same imam in a setting of tender and loving devotion.

I know that fundamentalist Christians are quite capable of the very same thing--they've got two faces and two voices. It's tender love and adoration for their god and for those who agree with them, and nothing but hate and condemnation for anyone who openly disagrees with them--most specifically atheists who dare live happily and unashamed of their atheism. This would include Richard Dawkins, author of the God Delusion. Whatever, it is clear that 9/11 would not have worked if there were no young men willing to forgo life in exchange for a short-cut to heaven. In Islam, apparently, suicide is not understood as the sin that it is in Christianity.

So the Muslims killed the Christians and the Christians retaliated.

Religion kills. It always has and apparently it always will.

Religion is evil.

Some people point to evil totalitarian 20th-century leaders who killed millions of people, and on those grounds condemn atheism. As you rightly point out, doesitmatter, atheism is not a belief system and for this reason, no one can kill in the name of atheism. Hitler killed in the name of pure blood, to make room for the Pure Race in the Homeland. Pol Pot killed for similar reasons. This was merely a continuation of age-old tribalism. Today's society wishes to see itself as having progressed beyond such barbarism. Hitler was a totalitarian imperialist, a concept whose time was past. The victors get to tell the story. Hitler lost the war and does not get to tell the story. However, I've watched enough movies to get some idea what the story might sound like, what the world could look like, if he had won. It was not atheism that drove him; it was some other human passion.

The same goes for Joseph Stalin, the Man of Steel. Not least of the human passions driving these men was fear and suspicion of their own top generals--the fear that their own powerful men would turn against them. To prevent this, they killed them. Both Hitler and Pol Pot saw their own men defecting. Stalin and Pol Pot killed their own men out of fear and suspicion. Pol Pot and Hitler are both suspected of killing themselves in the end, due to losing their respective wars. All three were cruel, power-hungry, totalitarian national leaders of the 20th century who looked outside organized religion for their ideas and are, for this reason, often used by enemies of atheists as examples of what atheism does to people.

Obviously, that is ridiculous. None of these men were proponents of atheism per se. Nor were they philosophers or preachers of any kind. They were political leaders or social engineers--or just plain greedy, power-hungry men who happened to be at the right place in the right time to get the power for which they lusted. Similar things could be said of the men who instituted Christianity by rhetoric, the edge of the sword, at gun point--and whatever other means necessary--throughout the world. Among these were the Apostle Paul, the Emperor Constantine, Czar Peter the Great, and various kings of Europe, popes of Rome, and American evangelists.

If one examines the ideals employed by those three 20th-century leaders, one will see that it was political ideologies as opposed to life philosophies. For example, here are the English subtitles of a few brief excepts of Hitler's closing speech at the Sixth Party of Congress (taken from Triumph of the Will):

    We carry the best blood and we know this.... [I ]t is not enough to simply declare: “I believe,” but rather to vow: “I will fight!”

    The Party....will remain unchangeable in its doctrine, hard as steel in its organisation, supple and adaptable in its tactics. In its entity, however, it will be like a religious order...At one time, our opponents found ways through bans and persecutions, to weed out the weaker elements of our movement.

    ...Only when we in the Party, using all our strength, have achieved the highest National Socialist ideals, only then will the Party be an eternal and indestructible pillar of the German people and the Reich....


There you've got it. Hitler was making his political ideology into a religion, not the other way around.

Some people claim that communism is atheist by nature. I suggest these people examine their Bibles more closely, as well as Christian church history. Communes have been part of Christianity and church life since the very beginning. Communism is none other than adapting the idea of having "all things common" (Acts 2:44-45) to the national level. In the same way that Peter killed (via the Holy Spirit, according to Scripture (Acts 5:1-11)) those who did not turn over all their possessions to the communist party, so did Stalin and Pol Pot. Hitler never tried for Communism; all he tried for was totalitarian imperialism. He succeeded for twelve terrible years.

I read about Stalin ten years ago and forget which books I read. Re Hitler, I watched a lot of videos this winter, and Stalin also figures in them. Here are a few of the major ones:



Some of the videos I watched were in German with no English subtitles.

The article I read on Pol Pot is here.

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P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: May 02, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Quote:
I always thought when Christians write apologetics they are apologizing for their beliefs, but that did not make sense at all because they also professed to be willing to die for their beliefs. If we humans are sorry for something--apologetic--to the degree that we apologize, normally we are not also willing to die for whatever it is that we are apologizing. Thus, I do not understand how apologetics can possibly mean "to defend."


It's because it's from a different root - nothing to do with 'apologizing'.


Quote:
All the same, if that is what it means, a few of the ideas I have been defending on these forums are that:
1. God does not exist, and
2. The power of fundamentalist religion must be broken.


Are you saying that you intend to defend a negative proposition? (the non-existance of God). Are you saying that there is no possibility that you could be wrong?

Even Dawkins doesn't go that far.

Maybe you can clarify.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: May 03, 2009 1:25 am 
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Your account has been deactivated due to your persistent disrespect of the atheist's beliefs, feelings, and intellect. You can read but no longer post.

You have been repeatedly warned, both in public and in private.

Your questions are answered in the sixth post of this thread.

_________________
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P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: May 03, 2009 2:48 pm 
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doesitmatter wrote:
Quote:
I always thought when Christians write apologetics they are apologizing for their beliefs, but that did not make sense at all because they also professed to be willing to die for their beliefs. If we humans are sorry for something--apologetic--to the degree that we apologize, normally we are not also willing to die for whatever it is that we are apologizing. Thus, I do not understand how apologetics can possibly mean "to defend."


It's because it's from a different root - nothing to do with 'apologizing'.


Sorry, I know this isn't quite fair because you can't reply. However, I did a bit of research since I wrote that quote, and to be fair to the rest of the readership I think it is important to post this bit of information from Wikipedia:

Quote:
In the English language, the word apology is derived from the Greek word apologia, but its use has changed; its primary sense now refers to a plea for forgiveness for a wrong act. Implicit in this is an admission of guilt, thus turning on its head the "speaking in defense" aspect of the original concept. An uncommon secondary sense refers to a speech or writing that defends the speaker or author's position.


Apparently, both forms of the word ("to write apologetics in defense of one's position" and "to apologize for a wrong-doing") derive from the same Greek root "apologia." It is common that words change their meaning over the course of time. This is what seems to have happened to this word in one of its English forms. Thus your statement "it's from a different root - nothing to do with 'apologizing' " is incorrect.

It seems, however, that apologetics is what I am--and have been--doing for the last two years on these forums. Thank you for forcing me to take a closer look at the term.

_________________
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P.S. I do my own thinking.
visit our Website
Website includes resources for deconversion & links to secular groups.


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