So what are we left with? Brute resistance? It would be hoped that there are other means than physical force. Many people think education is the best way to go. I am extremely skeptical. I have seen too many cases where education has absolutely zero impact; very many Christians will compartmentalize.

They will put their everyday life in one compartment of their brain. In that compartment they do all their day-to-day critical thinking and operating. They will put religion in another compartment where they just believe and trust that what their church teaches is correct.

As has been observed elsewhere, in Christianity alone there are fundamentalist doctors, lawyers, scientists and professors. These people obviously are good at critical thinking so far as it regards their professional performance. But they won't apply it to religious belief.

How can we push through that barrier?

Originally posted by Ex-COG here

I would always vote for education over any type of "brute" (violent?) resistance any day. You cannot force anyone to change, and any attempt to do so will actually strengthen fundamentalism, feeding their persecution complex. If we took a poll of former fundies, how many of us would say we left fundamentalism due to force? I think in general, more people are forced into fundyism than out of it.

I do think that the tide is turning, with more people becoming alarmed by too much religious power in government and society (I'm talking about America; not sure how it's going in Canada and other countries). However, there is a lot of damage that needs to be repaired, and there are certainly still fundy strongholds that need to be challenged. We do need serious change. Hopefully, many people who have tasted fundamentalism (like us) have licked through the candy-coating and reached the bitter center. Recent studies are reporting that the younger generation is much more skeptical and distrusting of religion than previous generations; this is a good sign.

Do you know when and where those studies were done and where I can read about them? This is very encouraging if, indeed, it reflects reality. With megachurches growing like wildfire (and with them being fundy for the most part) I feel totally unconvinced that any real change is happening.



As stated, I am not sure this is happening. Frankly, I feel more in touch with religious attitudes in the US than in Canada because most of the people on the discussion forums where I spend my time are Americans. Haven't stumbled on any forums anywhere that don't have Americans for the majority.



No, I do not promote brute or violent means. I think there HAS to be some other means. But WHAT? What language do people understand who do not normally yield to rational debate? They understand brute force and violence but there must be some other language they understand, too. Emotional manipulation occurs to me as in guilt trips and moral obligations. The Voice of Authority carries perhaps more weight than anything else. But it has to be a trusted authority--not just any authority. For the time being, large proportions of the American population have chosen to trust a certain form of biblical authority. I think Canadian fundies are taking inspiration from the large numbers of fellow fundies south of the border; they seem to be getting bolder, too.

The most plausible strategy in my mind at the moment comes from someone else's suggestion. The suggestion was made somewhere by somebody that first the most moderate fundies must be won over. Then the next degree more conservative, and in this way we must gradually work our way into the fundy "strong-holds" as you call them.

Fundy Strong-holds are probably made up primarily of people who trust the Voice of Authority.

Ex-Religionists are probably mostly people who do their own thinking and ask "unthinkable" and "unanswerable" questions of their inherited religions.

In between these two extremes we probably have a large group of people who more or less follow tradition as they were taught but also give fleeting thought to new ideas when/if they are presented. Emotional manipulation probably works fairly good with these people but they do also have their own value systems and intellectual insight that guide them. Mostly they are focused on surviving each day as it comes.

It also occurs to me that the people for whom the Voice of Authority is meaningful, "looking good," "popular opinion," and "majority vote" might be powerful motivators, too. Incidentally, none of those things have ever meant a lot to me, and now that I've left Christianity I've lost all credibility as a Voice of Authority.

James from the UK is one more piece of evidence that education does not work. The man has one of the best educations in the world but attributes faulty titles to people, i.e. implies that Richard Dawkins should speak for Jesus historians when he is a biologist. When I point out his errors he does not respond to them. Instead he indicates that I should stop talking to him. He is not using his education to understand and communicate ideas outside his chosen religious agenda. I don't fully understand in what field his education is but it looks to me like he is twisting his education to force a message on the world that will support the fundamentalist agenda of creationism.

He claims that in Columbus's day people knew the world was round, and that the church always knew that the earth was round. I think perhaps he is responding to the charge from secularism that the Bible has a flat earth and is therefore errant. Education is not working! It only gives the closed mind more tools to manipulate the masses to error.

Sorry it's taken me so long to answer, I haven't had much time to be on the forums lately.

As to studies and articles on the younger generation being skeptical: I'm afraid I don't have any links at this time. I often read things online, but don't always make a note of it for future reference. Then when I want to bring up a point, I have no proof. From on now, I'm going to try to keep track of info more carefully. I'll try to find some info on this for you. Oh, and as to the megachurches, don't worry too much about them. While some who attend these superchurches were formerly nonbelievers, many used to go to more traditional churches in the area and switched for all sorts of reasons. In other words, Christian fundamentalism is cannibalising itself. I can remember hearing stories about the megachurches in my area and how many pastors were very bitter because they were losing members to them. My former church has lost several members over the years to two local megachurches. So when you read about them, don't think that the growth of megachurches instantly means there are thousands of brand new Christians being herded into the fold; what is really happening is "sheep stealing".

As to how and win over fundies, I just posted in another thread (I think you pulled some of my quotes from there over to this new one) how certain people will always gravitate to fundamentalism, whether it is in the Christian form, or some different religion, political system, etc. It has to do with a person's personality. Some of us are more independent types, others are more insecure and need a tightly controlled system to feel safe. Those who remain within the fundamentalist fold and stay faithful to it would fall under the latter description, and could be called an authoritarian personality. Your using the phrase "Voice of Authority" is correct. Our aim should be to not waste time with these people (other than to limit their influence in society); rather we should try and locate those trapped within the fundy churches for whatever reason (family influence, mental problems, social ineptness, ignorance, etc.) who are not prone to the rigidity of authoritarian thinking and find ways to encourage them to explore alternatives to the fundamentalism that they are caught up in. I guess these would be the people who you called "moderate fundamentalists".

I have more thoughts on this, but I am already running out of time and I haven't even caught up on all the new posts since the last time I logged on! I am going to try and check in again tonight, and hopefully provide links to some new websites I've run across.

I saw and responded to your other thread. I understand about your work but value the ideas you share when you have time. I try to keep posting for the people who pass through on a daily basis. Some of it also appears on exChristian.